Kassette CS-9000 hat Spiel

[Kiwi-in-de]

Hi Tacoma,

I received the bike on Tuesday but have only had time to reassemble it and take it for a very short test ride. Unfortunately, it seems the noise is still present. The funny thing is, I can produce the noise while wearing flip-flops, so the noise really should not be that difficult to reproduce when they test ride it (a hill helps though).

According to the service document, they (as a temporary solution) replaced the DA cassette with an Ultegra one, because evidently the noise may in part be caused by the DA cassettes (as other people have experienced). They also replaced the hanger. In the service document it says hanger No. 28, but the hanger attached to the bike is a 25. It doesn’t say anything about rechecking the alignment afterwards.

My next step is to once again check the alignment of the hanger myself. Unfortunately I have moved towns and the friend with the alignment gauge is now 240km away. I will buy this reasonably priced one: http://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p4175_Kontrolllehre-fuer-Schaltauge-.html I’ll then report back here and to Canyon with what I find…

They did fix the other problem (present since new) though, relating to the front derailleur action. So that was a plus. They also replaced the fork, because ,,Die Gabel was im Bereich des Lagersitzes nicht zeichnungskonform und wurde daher ausgetauscht.’’ So obviously I am happy that they have been proactive in this regard.

So that was the 4th time they have sent the bike to me. Now that winter is setting in I wouldn’t be riding it much anyway, but that is beside the point. Under different circumstances I probably would have also ordered an Inflite CX bike by now, as it looks like a screaming good deal for a do-all winter/ wet weather bike. But as you may understand I am in no hurry to do that right now.

 

[tacoma]

Using a ULTEGRA Cassette will not solve the problem! The ULTEGRA 6800 cassette has a composite carrier too.
Strange solution by CANYON. It seems they are not aware of the problem!
Using the hanger alignment gauge will not solve the problem too because you can see the misalignment but you can’t bend the hanger. You can only replace it!

Unfortunately there is some confusion if you compare the hangers (#25/#28) in the CANYON shop compared to the picture of the ULTIMATE SLX frame 2014.
http://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3312
There you will see #25 ??

1. Control the position of the hanger
Is there a changing difference in the distance of the hanger to the frame (red line position less and blue line position more in the following picture)?

To fix the misalignment of the hanger you can try to place a 0,01mm shim (as they are used mounting ISO-disc-brakes on mountain bikes) between the hanger screws!


2. You can try to play with the B-tension adjustment screw. SHIMANO claims to put the derailleur-arm as close as you can to the teeth of the cog.
I give you the advice to put the derailleur in the 50-21 and 50-23 position and put it more apart from the teeth. Maybe this helps.
http://si.shimano.com/#seriesList/16
http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/dm/DM-RD0003-02-ENG.pdf ( dealer manual page 9)

3. The noise can also be caused more or less from the freehub body which could force the noise.

4. As chainline is not perfect in the lower three gears (especially with the 11-28 cogset) you will have success trying another chain.

On my XC-Bike I recently mounted a SRAM XX1 11-speed combo and I’m able to use all gears without noise because of a super narrow flexi SRAM XX1 chain.

I hope you succeed in solving the problem. Please report!

 

[darkbit]

@Kiwi-in-de

same problem here! I used a Park Tool DAG2 to check the derailleur with the original and with a replacement hanger. The measurement was 8mm difference between the 12 and 6 and 6mm difference between 3 and 9 o clock positions at the wheel.

You can find some pictures in my album.

 

[Kiwi-in-de]

Hi Tacoma,

Sorry for my slow reply – I was hoping to have more to report by now.

I received the Cyclus tool earlier this week. I will say that this tool cannot compare to the more expensive versions (i.e. Park Tool), but for the sake proving to myself that the alignment is still bad, it was sufficient for the purpose.

The first attachment shows the measurements. Obviously there is a component of measurement error in these! But when we are talking about a 14mm maximum difference, then the measurement error is not significant and I can be confident that there is a clear misalignment.

To reiterate, this is at least the 4th derailleur hanger fitted to the bike… so it is not an issue with the hanger!



OK, as I wrote this reply, I had another look at your photo of the hanger, and realised that I could check how parallel the two outer faces of the hanger are – I think it is a reasonable assumption that they should be parallel.

I also compared the new hanger to the hanger that was first shipped with the bike. Though they are both labelled No. 25, you can see in the attached photo that they are indeed quite different.

To the measurements (refer to attachment): I used digital vernier calipers to measure the outer face-to-outer face distances at various points around the hanger edge. Granted, using verniers while sitting in the lounge and with the camera in the other hand is not the best way to record completely accurate measurements. But it was good enough to get a clear picture. Going upwards, along the rear edge of the hanger, it is clearly “fat”, going from ~8.6mm to ~9.0mm. If I place the jaw faces of the verniers horizontally across the hanger, then there is a clear “air gap” at the front. I tried to photograph this, but it was difficult.

So this only seems to reiterate what I already suspected (and suggested to Canyon last time) – that there is an issue with the dropout of the frame.


As to answer the rest of your suggestions and questions:

Shims are not something that a new bike should require and certainly not something the customer should be contemplating.

B Tension: This was one of the first adjustments I made when I first received the bike and found the noise, however it seemed to have little effect. Of course, even if it did have a positive effect, moving the derailleur guide pulley away from the cassette is not addressing the real issue.

Freehub: As previously noted, the freehub body does have perceptible side-to-side play. In the first few days of ownership I experimented by varying the tension of the QR, and I thought I could perceive a small difference in both the magnitude of the play, and also the nature of the noise. On the first return to Canyon, I asked them to check the play, but they said it was within specification. I still do not rule out that it contributes to the problem though.

Chain: The bike was originally supplied with a KMC chain. After the first or second return, the bike came back from Canyon with a DA9000 chain. So I think that also rules out a possible chain issue.


Back to what I know: It seems that there is an issue with the dropout, as the hanger doesn't seem to mount to the frame correctly. Canyon has had three opportunities to resolve this (and that does not include pre-sale quality checks). I have gone completely out of my way to help them resolve this issue and the other issues the bike was delivered with. I have also been incredibly patient. This all began back in mid-August! Of course, this has not only cost me a lot of time, which I could have been using to ride my bike, or doing other productive things. However, this bike is also costing Canyon a lot of money too. Three times it has been back to them, and there will be at least one more. I have suggested to them that this time when I return the bike, instead of receiving the bike back, I should instead receive a full refund, because my patience is running out. I await the reply.

This is a pity, because I really wanted to like this bike. I believe all the other people who are overwhelmingly happy with their SLX’s and other Canyon models. I just seem to have got the Monday bike of Monday bikes, and so far they have done a terrible job of resolving the issues.


Tacoma, thanks for your helpfulness and suggestions. I will keep you updated.

 

[Kiwi-in-de]

Hi Darkbit, I was just about to post the long reply above, when I saw your reply. Thanks for the update and it interesting to know that I am not the only one. Sorry I can't help you by providing a more positive update of my own situation. Please keep us informed when you have a further update.

 

[tacoma]

Hi darkbit/Kiwi-in-de,

thanks for the updates.

If there is a series of Monday bikes with a misalignment at the dropouts causing chain noise comparing the frame numbers (sticker located under the left chainstay near the bottom bracket shell) would be helpful.

I am looking forward to an answer from CANYON reporting the issues discussed in this thread !!!!



Sehr geehrtes Canyon Support Team,

es wäre nett, wenn Sie eine Stellungnahme zu einem Problem abgeben könnten, das im Zusammenhang mit außerhalb der Toleranz liegenden Ausfallenden an den 2013er Ultimate CF SLX Rahmen entsteht.

Problem: Durch die Fehlstellung des rechten Ausfallendes und damit verbunden des Schaltauges entstehen im Bereich des Carbonspiders der Shimano Dura Ace 9000 Kassette bei Benutzung des großen Kettenblattes nicht tolerierbare Kettenlaufgeräusche.
Eine ausführliche Beschreibung des Problems finden Sie in dem folgenden Thread in dem Sie auch eine Stellungnahme abgeben können.

http://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/threads/kassette-cs-9000-hat-spiel.121786/

Für Ihre Mühe bedanke ich mich im Voraus.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

 

[Kiwi-in-de]

Hi Tacoma,
The s/n is R2013H13J00015
It is a size medium in stealth.

 

[Tom33]

Das Klackern ist weg, obwohl ich nichts verändert habe. Also hat es was mit den LR zu tun - vastehste?

oh, diesen thread gibt es ja auch noch... sorry, das ich mich jetzt erst wider melde.

Es ist also so, das nur kurzzeitig Ruhe war. Egal welcher LRS, ich kann die Schaltung so einstellen, das im 2. Gang Ruhe ist, dann laufen die mittleren Ritzel zusammen mit dem großen Blatt unsauber. Oder aber die Mitte läuft perfekt, dann klickert der 2. Gang wieder. Die Kette kommt in normaler Einstellung dem größten Ritzel einfach zu nahe.

Ich war letzte Woche bei der Inspektion, dort wurde sogar das Schaltauge getauscht (obwohl nahezu neu). Die Schaltung läuft noch genau wie vorher - allerdings nur unter Last (vorzugsweise am Berg bzw. im höheren Geschwindigkeitsbereich mit Groß / Mitte), daher ist es vor Ort auch nicht so leicht feststellbar. Wenn ich nun lese, das eventuell mit dem Rahmen etwas nicht stimmen könnte, wundere ich mich nicht länger, wieso man die Schaltung einfach nicht 100% eingestellt bekommt. Ich werde deshalb mit Canyon Kontakt aufnehmen.

Edit: So, komme gerade von einer Runde zurück. Habe während der Fahrt das Schaltwerk mal versucht einzustellen. Jetzt laufen die Gänge mit dem großen Blatt sauber und der zickige 2. ebenfalls. Die Gänge 4 - 6 liefen mit dem kleinen Blatt etwas unsauber. Ich werde mit dass nächste Woche noch etwas zu Gemüt führen. Komme ich zu meinem Ergebnis, muss das bike noch einmal nach Koblenz.

 

[tacoma]

I own two road-bikes from Canyon.
An older (2009) white Ultimate Pro Series Model and a 2013 Ultimate CF SLX .

Comparing the hangers I noticed that the hanger on the SLX is extremely flexi (distortion under chain tension)
Here is a small video to demonstrate this.

<iframe src="http://videos.rennrad-news.de/embed/player/1818" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="

Im Videobereich ansehen">00005mp4

It looks strange to me that I can bend the hanger without force and being unable to do this with the aluminum one on my older bike!

I guess this weakness can cause the problems discussed in this thread. But I’m not sure if they are caused more by the hanger or more by the carbon dropouts.

I’m looking for a custom made hanger . Maybe PILO can make a CNC machined one in the future.

 

[Kiwi-in-de]

Tacoma, I did the same as you did in the video and found my bike’s hanger to be similarly flexy. The hangers on my mtb (a Giant Anthem) and my wife’s mtb (a Canyon Nerve AL) are stiff by comparison. Maybe this is a contributing factor, but why does it affect my bike (in terms of noise) but not most other SLX’s?

I have loaded a video onto the forum video page, of the side-to-side play of the Ksyrium freehub. This video was made back in August when the bike was new. As you can see there is a small but significant amount of play. It is definitely not an issue with cassette spacers, as was discussed earlier in this thread. It is play of the freehub body on the hub axle. Presumably this is also the case for Darkbit.

The video is here

It occurred to me that the commonality of Darkbit and my issues are both the poor alignment of the hanger, and also the freehub play. So perhaps both issues contribute.

It is worth stating again that the noise really is quite bad, especially in the 21 and 23 (on a 11-28 cassette). The harder I push on the pedals, the worse is the noise. It is necessary to avoid riding 50x21 or 50x23 when pushing hard uphill – otherwise it sounds like something in the back of the bike will explode. Another curiosity is that the noise is more distinct and worse when the chain is freshly lubricated.

So, and this does involve some speculation, but it seems that contributors to this could be:

1. Poor alignment of the hanger/ dropout on the Canyon frame
2. Play on the Mavic freehub
3. And possible design issues with the Shimano cassette.

Not related to the noise issue, but to the “Monday bike” issue: I also have attached a photo of the first crankset which came with the bike. Although it is only a cosmetic issue, I think this is unacceptable for a Dura-Ace level component. It shouldn’t have made it out of the Shimano factory, but nor should it have left Canyon on a new bike either. Canyon had agreed to replace the crankset prior to me returning the bike on the first occasion (It was stated in their return document), however it was returned to me with the same crank and rings. Second time around it was replaced. Everything has been needlessly difficult!

 

[tacoma]

Hi Kiwi-in-de,

it’s not only your 2013 SLX that’s affected by noise problems running the chain in the carbon-spider section.

But some are not concerned by the noise because the have never used a soundless drivetrain or it’s ignored by those who don’t use the last three cogs of the 11-28 cassette in combination with the big front chainring very often.

On the other hand noise is not so extreme if 11-25/11-23 cassettes are used!

It seems to be an issue with the Shimano Components. So far there are no problems reported with the Campagnolo stuff.

What looks strange to me is the side to side play of the freehub body of the Mavic Ksyrium Elite S wheel in your video. This can be seen on other Ksyrium wheels too. A “wobbling” freehub body is a well known Ksyrium problem! In my opinion this could cause chain rub.

And there is a question that must be answered by CANYON!
What the hell is the reason that there are three different hangers for a SLX frame, two different #25 hangers (to be seen in your pictures) and the #28 one on the 2014 frames???

 

[tacoma]

@Kiwi-in-de, @darkbit, @Tom33

I didn’t expect to get an answer from CANYON. But they must have read this thread and sent me the #28 hanger and a reply in which they confirmed my suggestions about an issue with the earlier SLX hangers.
So far I’m satisfied with the CANYON service.

But they didn’t describe the problems with the hanger exactly and the effects it may cause.

Hope a new hanger helps to solve the noise problem.


Sehr geehrter Herr …….,

vielen Dank für Ihre E-Mail vom 23. November 2013 und Ihre Anfrage.

Wir freuen uns, dass Sie sich für ein Canyon Ultimate CF SLX entschieden haben. Es ist in Einzelfällen zu Problemen mit dem Schaltauge bei Ihrem Modell gekommen. Ich werde Ihnen kostenfrei ein überarbeitetes Schaltauge vom aktuellen Modell zusenden. Dieses ist kompatibel zu Ihrem Canyon Ultimate CF SLX.
Bitte entschuldigen Sie die Unannehmlichkeiten. Sollten Sie weitere Fragen oder Anliegen haben, können Sie sich gerne mit Ihrer Kundennummer wieder an uns wenden.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Servicecenter

 

[Tom33]

*my SLX derailleur hanger was replaced two weeks ago - even though the other was replaced in September. Unfortunately, I can not say which is now installed. The problem with the noise remains. Now I get a new DA cartridge ... I can tell until next week, if the issue is resolved.

*Google-Übersetzung

 

[darkbit]

Ich schicke mein Bike jetzt zu Canyon. Wenn Canyon das Problem nicht in den Griff bekommt, dürfen sie das Bike gleich behalten.

 

[Kiwi-in-de]

Time for my update. After I requested a refund, Canyon offered to replace my bike with a new 2014 model (which is almost identical in spec to the 2013) which is in stock now. As I think I simply got very unlucky with the first bike, and as I was very happy with the many other aspects of the bike that have not been discussed above, I saw this as a pretty good way to resolve the situation.

Since receiving the first bike and having spent some time here in Germany, and more recently having moved to München, and also quickly discovering that winters here are much harsher than home in NZ, I realised that my needs have changed. If I knew what I know now, I probably wouldn't have bought such a high-end bike. Also, if I now in December received a new fully functioning SLX, I would spend much of the next three months staring longingly at it, impatiently waiting for the winter to pass. I can also see how a cyclocross bike would be great for winter, wet weather, and linking up sealed roads and unsealed paths which are common here. So with that in mind I requested to Canyon that I replace the first bike with both an Inflite 9.0 and and an Ultimate SL 9.0, plus I pay the relatively small additional price.

I am pleased to say that Canyon obliged and said yes to my request. Fingers crossed the that Infite arrives just before Christmas. I am really looking forward to getting this bike. Also a big fingers crossed that the Ultimate makes the expected March delivery. Both these bikes have full new Ultegra which is supposed to be every bit as well functioning as their DA big brother. So aside from a half-full water bottle worth of weight, the SL 9.0 is very, very similar to the SLX 8.0.

Of course, the best situation of all would have been that I had received a fully-functional SLX back in August, and I had been able to enjoy a late summer and autumn clocking up the miles. I would now be faced with whether I wanted to spend another ~1700 Euro on a CX bike. But as far as resolving the issues I have had up to now, I have to be happy with the outcome.

 

[Tom33]

die neue Kassette kam vorhin... eingebaut, eingestellt und ein paar Meter bergauf gefahren - ich konnte keine nervigen Geräusche feststellen. Das ist zwar noch nicht wirklich aussagekräftig, aber es sieht gut aus

 

[Tom33]

heute morgen kurz zum Bäcker, läuft alles ganz sauber, nur der 1. Gang klackert - ich hoffe, das da bloß der Schwenkbereich nicht passt. Kann erst am WE weiter testen...

 

[tacoma]

@Tom33
Hoffentlich ist dein Problem mit der neuen Kassette nun gelöst.

Ich bin leider „kalt“ gestellt. Konnte das neue #28 Schaltauge bis dato noch nicht testen, weil für mich
(Trainer alpin, Skilehrer) schon längst die Ski-Saison begonnen hat und die dauert bis Ende April.

@Kiwi-in-de (Kiwi-in-munich)
Wish you good luck with your new bikes.

 

[Tom33]

Danke, ich werde berichten...

 

[Tom33]

die neue Kassette brachte leider keinen Erfolg

Canyon ist aber um eine Lösung bemüht.